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December 08, 2009

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Sam Diener

Je suis sur les Etats Unites. Philadelphia, PA. Sorry sorry, Laurie, I saw the "non" in your post and it spurred me to start answering in French. But then I realized I am not good at French.

I hope your child gets better. I would write that post, but I am also busy. We can write it in the future.

Laurie, you are correct in saying that measuring blog metrics is difficult. I mean really, you can't use certain analytics measures even. The true measure would have to be in what you are measuring.

The reason I have reasoned that comments are so important is because of the goal of the contest: community. In this contest, that is the only thing you really can measure.

There are a few of us in this contest that can guarantee we can write a post and get a thousand hits/reads in one day. But once again that does not build community. Not anymore my opinion of the measure of a good blogger.

You can be put into a position that gives you traffic without being a good blogger.

I know how to generate 1,000 visits a day... but once again, this doesn't make me a good writer or social media person.

I have seen HORRIBLE writing with 10,000 reads.....

laurie

ooooo. I'm enjoying this. As I suspected, this would make an awesome coffee debate.

Sam - I'd write that blog post with you - though timing is short for collaboration now that my son is at home throwing up. (ARGH).

First - sounds like we are all in violent agreement.

Second - Sam - I like your p.o.v. about the role of emotion in creating a successful post.

I too have noted the role of traditional media has supporting a meme. Its not 'integrated' [same message, multiple vehicles, same timing] so much as staged [evolving message, same theme, multiple vehicles, successive timing] . I think that a great post or idea to gain true *huge* viral results, it needs some kind of traditional media support the meme.

3. What really comes to mind after reading both Sam & Conrad - your comments is how difficult it is to set blog success metrics.

Engaging is commentary - true enough. But engaging is also repeat visitation, tweeting, retweeting, facebook sharing, etc.. all valued differently but together make up engagement. And so what is needed [and I've seen this] is a more complex measure of what engaging means - like assigning weights to each activity then adding it up. Then we approach understanding what the quality of a post is.

4. Conrad - about getting the traffic.
[damn - I wish this conversation were on google wave.. I have to scroll up again...]

What's a click thru for a blog post? A link?

Okay - I'm getting your 'you have to market your content' comment. I think you've helped me understand this better - definitely.

Coming from managing web properties [with corporate blogs as an add-on not primary role], I'm used to unique traffic being a really big deal - with the quality of traffic defined as conversion of a goal. [with my IBM past.. that was typically e-commerce]

And for the businesses that I've been involved with, the marketing goal is not short term traffic (which is what a friend blast generates) but sustaining traffic. [and, its not just traffic, but conversion, pathing, bounces etc]

Now in the contest for the year blogging about an Australian island - the short term, getting all your networks to visit, rate my video and build traffic is the right route to go. It pushes a campaign spike. And I have no doubt that the winner has held onto a significant portion of traffic.

For a community marketing blog that wants long term traffic - the posts that concretely lift the traffic by adding new subscribers or overall traffic would be more successful. (and, as you suggest, with double digit commentary). But I don't think measurement gets down to the post level the same way unique URL web pages give statistics... [I don't know].

Maybe I'm talking about the same result. I don't know. Maybe we could get Andrew to weigh in.

Ah.. I had better think of another post now.

Laurie.

p.s. Sam - where abouts are you? I'm in Toronto. And Conrad - I believe you are in T.O. too non?

laurie

ooooo. I'm enjoying this. As I suspected, this would make an awesome coffee debate.

Sam - I'd write that blog post with you - though timing is short for collaboration now that my son is at home throwing up. (ARGH).

First - sounds like we are all in violent agreement.

Second - Sam - I like your p.o.v. about the role of emotion in creating a successful post.

I too have noted the role of traditional media has supporting a meme. Its not 'integrated' [same message, multiple vehicles, same timing] so much as staged [evolving message, same theme, multiple vehicles, successive timing] . I think that a great post or idea to gain true *huge* viral results, it needs some kind of traditional media support the meme.

3. What really comes to mind after reading both Sam & Conrad - your comments is how difficult it is to set blog success metrics.

Engaging is commentary - true enough. But engaging is also repeat visitation, tweeting, retweeting, facebook sharing, etc.. all valued differently but together make up engagement. And so what is needed [and I've seen this] is a more complex measure of what engaging means - like assigning weights to each activity then adding it up. Then we approach understanding what the quality of a post is.

4. Conrad - about getting the traffic.
[damn - I wish this conversation were on google wave.. I have to scroll up again...]

What's a click thru for a blog post? A link?

Okay - I'm getting your 'you have to market your content' comment. I think you've helped me understand this better - definitely.

Coming from managing web properties [with corporate blogs as an add-on not primary role], I'm used to unique traffic being a really big deal - with the quality of traffic defined as conversion of a goal. [with my IBM past.. that was typically e-commerce]

And for the businesses that I've been involved with, the marketing goal is not short term traffic (which is what a friend blast generates) but sustaining traffic. [and, its not just traffic, but conversion, pathing, bounces etc]

Now in the contest for the year blogging about an Australian island - the short term, getting all your networks to visit, rate my video and build traffic is the right route to go. It pushes a campaign spike. And I have no doubt that the winner has held onto a significant portion of traffic.

For a community marketing blog that wants long term traffic - the posts that concretely lift the traffic by adding new subscribers or overall traffic would be more successful. (and, as you suggest, with double digit commentary). But I don't think measurement gets down to the post level the same way unique URL web pages give statistics... [I don't know].

Maybe I'm talking about the same result. I don't know. Maybe we could get Andrew to weigh in.

Ah.. I had better think of another post now.

Laurie.

p.s. Sam - where abouts are you? I'm in Toronto. And Conrad - I believe you are in T.O. too non?

Conrad Hall

Hi Laurie,

Excellent comment! You've raised two hugely important issues:
1. Are page views valuable without comments, and
2. What is quality traffic

Laurie, you're absolutely right that this post gives a boost to the currently popular posts. That's one reason why this post came later in the competition. It needed posts that had proven their popularity for examples.

I could have used posts from other blogs, but that would have given the article less relevance to the audience. To have maximum relevance, and the lowest possible impact, writing this post had to wait until after the halfway point.

About page views - does a page with 8,000 views and 0 comments have as much value as a page with only 500 views and 100 comments?

When the metric being measured is Dialogue, the answer is clearly "No." In that case, no dialogue equals no value.

When you look at different metrics, the answer is going to change. For example, if the metric is changed to Click Throughs and the page with 8,000 views had a 75% click through rate - there is obviously value there.

Even if the page with 500 views has a 100% click through rate, its value is still lower.

In the context of #blogoff2, Dialogue (or Dialog) is a more important metric than Traffic. So while page views are certainly being tracked, it's important for those views to result in dialogue.

Laurie, you're absolutely right that a page with a lot of views can have value. You can see why knowing what it is we want to measure, and why, is important. That puts you in front of a big pack, Laurie.

About getting traffic - Should every competitor be telling their entire network about #blogoff2? Absolutely.

Should you also be deliberately asking for support from your community in the form of comments and dialogue? Absolutely.

It's no different than me telling everyone I know about a new book I've written. It might be the most amazing book ever published, but if nobody knows about it they can't benefit from it.

One of the criteria for #blogoff2 is the traffic you generate. Naturally, to generate traffic, you have to tell your community about the competition.

So where do you draw the line? Do you ask a group of close friends to help you "stack the deck" by engaging in conversations? I think we all know that is a dishonest thing to do.

But if that same conversation happens spontaneously because you asked your friends to have a look at the competition - that's okay. Heck, you might ask your friends to look at your post and have them end up in a conversation about someone else's post.

My point is this: You have to market your content. You have to blow your own horn. When you get to be Seth Godin or Anthony Robbins, sure, other people will blow their horn on your behalf.

Which raises an interesting possibility: Who says competitors can't promote each other? But be careful, I'm not talking about "teaming up."

What I am talking about is you reading a post and thinking it would be interesting for a friend. Who's to say you can't tell your friend about it? I think you should.

This one is only called Blog Off 2. There will be a 3, 4, 5, 6 and so on. Remember Napoleon Hill - help enough other people get what they want, and you will end up with what you want.

What better way to get good at using social media than by using it? Would you like to have a reputation for bringing useful, relevant content to your friends and readers?

Wow, I've practically written a whole new post! Egad, I've engaged in a monologue instead of a dialogue! Okay. I'll stop now and let someone else "speak."

Sincerely,
Conrad Hall

Conrad Hall

Hi Sam,

How about you write it with someone during the competition? Get together in the next 3 days and write it.

Let's see what happens when a post is created as a spin-off discussion from another post. Then, after the competition, carry on the conversation here and on your own blogs.

Sincerely,
Conrad Hall

Sam Diener

By the way..... if you want a blog post that would be very good: Is Traffic Valuable?

I will co-write it with someone if they want after the contest.

Sam

Sam Diener

Laurie - I will have this debate :)

Interestingly I just adopted this thought during this competition when I did realize that traffic is not a be all end all...

We are not all coming from the same experience levels, so it's true that traffic wouldn't entirely be a fair judgement? Our networks are all different groups of people.

I think active conversation completely a sign of engagement. Obviously there are the comments make because people ask you to, and then the ones that are cause they want to.

Both are tremendously different, I agree with you there.

Traffic is sometimes analogous to the comments people make because you ask them to. And you can buy traffic which is actually kind of the same as your friends making comments because you make them.

But think what is different about all of the internet "viral content? Think about how something becomes viral in the marketplace. Example - um, Susan Boyle (I would link here but links disabled). She became viral because you saw that video, and immediately wanted to talk about it. For example.... 30 million views on you tube, and 100k comments. People bought into it and talked about it. It became an emotional topic, so people naturally talked about it, and traffic grew virally. The ability to get people fired up and talking, is what you want to do in social media.

Now with Susan Boyle and most other videos or viral content, there is usually some point where it becomes viral -- eg. a massive launch point (news station finds it, or really popular facebook person shares it and makes all of there friends share it). However, for this to happen, content HAS to create an emotion. If we worked together, we could probably do it for one of the posts in the competition as some are really good.

In social media, sometimes we are working for ourselves and we have a limited budget. The only way to make the biggest bang for our buck is to create content that makes people emotional.....

I can send you 10,000 unique visitors to your site. But if they aren't engaged.... not commenting... you are never going to get bigger than 10,000 visitors. Which is worthless in the grand scheme. Well, at least in social media.

If you have 3000 visitors that leave 100 lively comments that really are engaged vs. 10,000 visitors that leave 100 "ho hum" comments.... your chance of 3000 visitors becoming 10,000 is great. But the chance of those 10,000 becoming 30,000 not so great. Give me 10,000 visitors to a post that has 100 people actively discussing... and you can make it go viral....

Case and point: don't you feel compelled to respond? And possibly others in the contest too(that is if my argument is logical, which it might not be.)

laurie

Sam & Conrad -
Thanks for commenting back.

So I get that comments are valuable though I'm willing to debate a post with 8000 views and no comments has strong value too. I think we assume too quick that having a comment is engagement - that's where I like Conrad's points about a blog post of enduring value (although I recognize that each blog post has its reason for being) [this is all sounding like the making of an excellent coffee chat]

My point was just that having a blog post sporting the assignment of printing out the most popular blog posts automatically gives an extra boost to each blog post for contestants who follow thru. That's not traffic that comes from Conrad directly.

Now if I were one of the aforementioned posts [and this is what I recommend], I would be retweeting this post like crazy simply because it puts my post in the best light. More traffic.

What is really difficult is measuring quality traffic to a blog. Sure I can blast my facebook friends and force comments too but it is an artificial measure of success isn't it?

I have great respect for the measurement that must be coming!
Yours in enthusiasm.
Laurie.

Conrad Hall

Hi Therran,

Thank you for the applause. I'm glad you find my writing useful.

Please feel welcome to comment again if you have questions.

Sincerely,
Conrad Hall

Conrad Hall

Hi Laurie,

Thank you for commenting. It's good to know readers are getting good use from my writing.

You'll be happy to know that my traffic isn't part of the grading process for #blogoff2. The element of traffic that does count is the Comments and traffic generated by competitors. (Think of me as a fancy hood ornament more than as an engine.)

You can see how necessary it is to have the other elements in place to generate the comments and conversation. A post that gets read 1,000 times really isn't as valuable to you, the writer, as the post that generates 100 comments.

Thanks again, Laurie. I appreciate your comments.

Therran Oliphant

This is one awesome post, Conrad. I appreciate you mentioning my LinkedIn post too! I have personally learned a lot just from being involved with this competition, and am grateful for people, such as yourself, imparting knowledge so freely. Once again, another reason why I love SM. You are a lb. of "awesomesauce" with a cherry on top.

Sam Diener

Laurie -- I really think that traffic is not a measure of blogging success.... Certainly you want it, but how good is traffic if it does nothing. You want a blog to be interactive. If I have 8000 reads, (which I did from SU on an article of mine on my blog) but no commnets, where does that get me?


Sam

laurie

Conrad -
I was looking forward to your next post as I learned much from your last one. I appreciate the frankness and coaching because I'm not a natural born blogger ;-).

Certainly, I find it different to blog under pressure but I can see how I have become a bit lazy in my home blog. Thank you for the time you've taken to share the above.

I'm also going to follow your advise about agreement in a conversation...

I can't help wondering how traffic can be used objectively as a measure of success in this contest when this post is now promoting some posts and not others. I say this more out of curiosity than anything else - given my nod to other deserving posts.

At the same time, this is the natural environment of the blogosphere and that is what also makes this friendly competition so interesting.

Cheers!
Laurie.

Sam Diener

I was happy to work with Tim... He really does have a very niche set of expertise, and I love to see his knowledge get out "there"

Sam

Conrad Hall

Hi Tim,

For someone who is brand new, you're doing quite well. You've chosen a good topic, and you're engaging people in conversation.

For everyone reading, be sure you're returning to your posts and following up on comments. You definitely want to subscribe to the comments, and my preference is Google Reader. Of course, you do get an e-mail when someone comments on one of your posts, too.

I'm glad to know you're getting a lot of good from this project, Tim. That you and Sam have already made contact is excellent. Community is a big part of what Andrew is working to achieve.

Sincerely,
Conrad Hall

Tim Rufner

Conrad,

Thank you so much for this article. I was wondering when this was going to come out in the contest lol. I am new, I'm talking BRAND new to blogging. I have learned so much just by being in this contest. I have read and commented on almost every single post, while managing a full time career, my bowling habit and my family. How the heck did I do it, dedication, just as I can see in your writing how dedicated you are Conrad, that is how I am for everything I put my effort in to. My mentally for blogging is to "teach" people, I was a trainer for 5 years teaching users how to run engraving equipment. I also coach bowling in the winter and baseball in the summer all for just the gratification of seeing the children succeed. Thank you for wanting us to succeed. I know I am not the best blogger and I can see who is going to win the competition, I have talked to Sam on the phone and he has helped me already. The camaraderie this competition has developed is second to none and I am happy that I am part of this for that simple fact. I will make sure Andrew knows my thoughts on how this competition has already changed my life.

Sam Diener

Conrad --- GREAT post!

SAM Diener

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